Crawler ToolBar, add-on de SpywareTerminator

[Tokar]

Before responding again, please let me respond to the posts. Thank you.

[cyrilcvcf]

Tokar confirme qu'il ne révèlera pas des informations personnelles collectées sur nos PC. Il confirme par là que la crawler toolbar est au minimum un spyware, et peut-être pire (Trojan ?) vu qu'il ne veut pas détailler les informations personnelles qui sont collectées. D'ailleurs il ne dit pas à qui elles sont envoyées et quelle en est leur utilisation. Il refuse à Assiste.com la possibilité d'examiner les sources (le code) de la toolbar, et demande par contre que nous lui fassions une confiance aveugle quand aux déclarations qu'il a faites, et qui sont invérifiables.

 

Mauvaise réponse de Tokar.

 

 

Je crois qu'il a bien choisi son pseudo !

Modifié le 11 juillet 2007 par cyrilcvcf

[Tokar]

It is stupid to make 10 posts in reply to all of your comments. So I will attempt to address everyone's comments in one big post.

 

 

Sacles and others have said "Crawler is a problem":

Explain to me how it is a problem? By "problem" you are referring to something which causes harm I am guessing. How do we do "harm"? If you refer to the original content of this thread, the Firefox problem, it was a BUG which no one seems to want to help us fix; they just complain and think we are maliciously harming your computer.

 

Cornflower says that our software uninstalls without consent:

I have shown the screenshot in a previous post. The user can only install the toolbar if they choose to. People download our software from our websites if they want to (there are no drive-by active X), and every one of our software titles is only installed with consent.

 

Cornflower says that other software is hidden in the Spyware Terminator installation:

I insist you visit the Spyware Terminator download page (http://www.spywareterminator.com/dnl/landing.aspx ). Every downloadable version is CLEARLY marked to include Web Security Guard. "Download FREE Spyware Terminator & Web Security Guard"

 

Cornflower says our software is impossible to uninstall:

The problem presented by Gixona was a BUG, nothing more. We provide full uninstallers for ALL of our software. If you can not find them I can help you find them. If our software did not fully uninstall as with Gixona, then if REPORTED ON OUR FORUM we can help the user fix the BUG.

 

Cornflower brought up that people wanted to know more about this business and there is too much information here:

I agree there is too much information here. I apologize for my intervention, but people started to claim that our software malware. If I posted about users here on Spyware Terminator forums nothing would get solved since not many people here read our forums. I had to speak to them directly. If moderators or administrators wish to move any post related to Crawler, Crawer Toolbar, or Crawler policies into a new thread, please do. I am all for it. This thread was meant to fix a simple problem with our software. I am willing to continue this argument for however long it takes to get the Assiste.com.free.fr listing removed. That is my intention. I cant stop people from posting negative things about our company on forums like this one. They are your opinions and we can not do anything to opinions. But it is my job to fix pages like Assiste.com.free.fr which is a place for security information which makes baseless claims about our software which are damaging to our company.

 

Sacles says that we should offer Crawler Toolbar as out-in instead of opt-out:

Our opinions (your's and Crawler's) differ on how to offer a toolbar. Several other companies follow the same practices and are not criticized for it, and as long as that is the case Crawler feels it is in line with standards of the market.

 

Sacles says comparison to other products does not just justify the actions of another products:

True, but the fact that our products are singled out is indication that Assiste.com.free.fr has a personal vendetta, a negative bias, towards our software and not other software titles. It makes his webpage biased in nature and we feel we should not be given preferential treatment. This must be fixed, and I will continue to compare our software to other software titles because those other software titles are widely accepted and not nearly as criticized as our software.

 

cyrilcf keeps saying we do not want to release certain information about our company:

I am here. I work for the company. I have answered every question you have asked me. I am not going anywhere anytime soon. So just ask me what you want to know and I will answer to the best of my abilities. If you do not like my answer please ask me to ask my superiors who should be able to supply satisfactory answers. How many other companies are taking this extra step to completely open about stuff like this?

 

horus agressor says crawler toolbar is a trojan and provides the Craptheque page as proof:

1) our software is not a trojan, 2) the claims made by the Craptheque page are "claims". The claims on that page provide no proof. There are no tests, there is no data, there are no screenshots, nothing.

 

horus agressor brings up things like "Spyware Terminator is an imitation of SpyBot", "the HIPS is not good", and several other opinions of Spyware Terminator:

I am not at liberty to judge your opinions. They are you opinions, you have the right to free speech. I will not criticize or degrade your opinions. They are yours and your reason for not using our software. That is perfectly fine.

However, these opinions are not reasons for putting Spyware Terminator on the Craptheque page. If parts of our program are not good, then they are not good. Every day we are improving and eventually we will be at a point where people see most of our features as good in comparison.

It is hard to compare a freeware application developed by people who are doing this as a hobby to commercial applications, like the ones you mentioned, which charge for their applications. The commercial developers have a standard to uphold to maintain subscribers. Spyware Terminator, too, has standards to uphold but if a user uninstalls our software we do not lose future money.

 

On a side note: we have only a limited number of people who work a standard 8 hour business day to do definition updates. They work from 8AM to 5PM Czech time doing updates. We do not have the resources to have people working around the clock putting out updates every minute of the day. As we grow this will change.

Modifié le 11 juillet 2007 par Tokar

[ADSLgratuit]

A ce stade du dialogue, seul ce qui est vérifiable peut changer la donne.

Relancer le débat sur diverses considérations antérieures est stérile.

Cela s'appelle noyer le poisson.

[Tokar]

Well this is not my fault. It does not appear that people are reading my responses in previous replies. Everyone keeps rehashing the same questions without proper proof.

 

I am not trying to control opinions here.

 

Opinions, negative and positive are welcome. People criticize our removal engine, people criticize our prevention engine. Thats fine. There are also people who approve of our engines. That is fine too. I can not change that, and I will not try to sway you.

 

However, there is a difference between an opinion and a claim.

 

An opinion is: "I do not like XXXXX because it does YYYY or does not find ZZZZ. I do not recommend using it". You are taking what you are looking at, providing proof and making an opinion.

A claim is: "I find a problem with XXXX. It is bad." That is a claim. You pass judgement without providing proof.

 

People continue to bring up that Crawler Toolbar is a trojan, or is bad, or is collecting information, or is selling information, or is doing this or doing that...but without proof. What I am trying to do here is get the proof. If you have proof, great. I will take it up with my superiors and see what the deal is. But no one is providing proof.

 

Proof of a trojan would be a screenshot of an antivirus software detecting a trojan in our software.

Proof of malicious intent would be a video of our installation process doing something bad, like deleting files, or downloading advertisements.

Proof of selling information would be a published document from a verifiable source with proof of these actions.

 

Nobody is providing proof. So I am left to trying to get it.

[bleuet]

Re....

 

Il n'y aurait donc plus que ce logiciel pour assurer certaines défenses d'un PC ?

Subitement, tous les logiciels qui tournent depuis des années, sans problèmes, qui ont fait leurs preuves et dans la transparence totale auraient été anesthésiés par S.T. et de nos listes de logiciels ?

Horus agressor a dit ce qui est raisonnable.

Dans le doute, s'abstenir reste la plus sage position.

On voit bien que beaucoup de choses ne sont pas claires autour de ce logiciel. Cette histoire de crawler ne trouve de justification que dans le fait qu'il faut pour les exploitants de logiciels trouver une contrepartie financière.

Ce que font bien d'autres firmes!

Les technico-commerciaux de S.T. défendront leur logiciel. C'est leur job.

Celui qui a un PC doit tirer la leçon d'un dialogue qui est devenu un acharnement à prouver ce que l'utilisateur lambda ne pourra jamais vérifier, et qui doit agir selon son libre arbitre et donc trancher personnellement.

L'arbitre final reste l'utilisateur.

 

Mais il faut mettre en avant le principe de précaution dont chacun tire sa propre conclusion.

 

Et tirer la leçon de ce qui tourne à une bataille totalement stérile d'agucies diverses sans aucun intérêt.

 

Bonne soirée à tous.

[ipl_001]

Hi Tokar, hi everyone,

 

We have to cope with malware everyday and we don't trust easily!

 

Some facts against the Crawler Toolbar:

 

- in the past, Crawler had established connections with IBIS, a well known adware distributor responsible for such adware programs as Wintools, Websearch, & Huntbar.

We remember well this adware and after having been harassed, users stay very reluctant.

We know Eric L. Howes has de-listed Spyware Terminator from his Rogue/Suspect list but it takes far much longer to gain trust than to lose it!

 

- Spybot Search and Destroy, a favorite programs of ours doesn't have any toolbar and does have clear additional tools with opt-in options to get TeaTimer or to vaccinate or others

 

- we don't need the toolbar for SpywareTerminator so that this Opt-Out tool is an unwanted thingy ie a nag... some will say a crapware

 

- there's also the problem of the bug b/w the toolbar and FireFox which led to an impossibility to get rid of it

 

- I know there's a link to download ST without the Crawler Toolbar but that's the problem, it's not easily found and there's this Opt-Out which is neither clearly visible nor properly seen!

 

- Crawler LLC is a Czech company and we tend to be very careful with Eastern Europe given the malware and spam coming from this part of the world!

 

- there are oodles of security tools...

 

Again, it takes far much longer to gain trust than to lose it!

[Tokar]

In the end the choice is the user's, that is correct. However you and everyone continues to mention that software should be developed for the beginner in mind. We agree. However, opinions and claims on this forum, other forums, download sites, etc. should have the beginner user in mind as well.

 

Beginners are easily swayed by the biased positions of certain people, positions of companies, and positions of certain websites.

 

While the people of America probably will not be influenced by the discussion here, or Assiste.com.free.fr, or the Craptheque listing at Assiste.com.free.fr, the people of France, and other French speaking people around the world will be swayed by these sites.

 

From our point of view, it is very important to fix these problems so that we do not lose possible installations of our software in the French market. Every market is important to us, including the French one.

 

 

 

edit: i just saw your post ipl_001. I will respond in a moment.

Modifié le 12 juillet 2007 par Tokar

[cyrilcvcf]

Ca y est, on y est arrivé !

 

 

 

 

 

Et surtout, à présent : attendez je regarde vos posts et je vois ce que je peux répondre ! (avec les chefs ?)

Modifié le 12 juillet 2007 par cyrilcvcf

[ipl_001]

Hi Tokar, hi everyone,

 

edit: i just saw your post ipl_001. I will respond in a moment.

 

Ce message a été modifié par Tokar - Aujourd'hui à 03h04.

translation: This message was modified by Tokar - Today at 03h04 (9:04p for you in Philadelphia).

 

My last post -> http://forum.zebulon.fr/index.php?s=&s...t&p=1044276

 

~~

 

Tokar, I know it's not easy for you to prepare your response to my post then find new arguments here... I apologize for this but on the other hand, in the meanwhile, thoughts come to my mind and it's difficult to wait: that's why I choose to write them down here.

Don't worry, don't feel harassed... I would like a good discussion and we've got some time to think and build our posts!

 

 

 

In the end the choice is the user's, that is correct. However you and everyone continues to mention that software should be developed for the beginner in mind. We agree. However, opinions and claims on this forum, other forums, download sites, etc. should have the beginner user in mind as well.

 

Beginners are easily swayed by the biased positions of certain people, positions of companies, and positions of certain websites.

On security forums, we have to deal with infections and threats all day long and we think our duty is to look after beginners who are the main part of users and who give out malware throughout the Internet!

Software must be developed for any users: power-users as well as beginners, but again, beginners are a big danger and we (on forums) must teach and protect them to get a secure Internet. Any threat against beginners is ours!

 

While the people of America probably will not be influenced by the discussion here, or Assiste.com.free.fr, or the Craptheque listing at Assiste.com.free.fr, the people of France, and other French speaking people around the world will be swayed by these sites.

Don't be so sure!

If you search on the Internet with your favorite engine, you'll probably find that I'm a member (administrator, ambassador, moderator, security expert, etc.) of oodles of message boards: tens of French, German, British and American forums.

If you tried to read the messages announced by every forum, you would not find them out because I'm in private sections most of the time! I'm also on entirely private boards that you will never find through search engines!

Lots of security members at Zebulon do the same: we participate in global discussions!

I guess you keep a close eye at the antimalware community: search on Zebulon... CalamityJane, miekiemoes, TonyKlein, Pieter Artz aka Metallica, Galadriel, Ruby, Chachazz, Hunter aka Name Game, Thunder aka Thor, Jintan, dahli, etc. are members of ours and you won't be able to read their posts as they come to private security sections here!

Don't be so sure France is alone! On the opposite, we are a part of the global antimalware community and we are in a close relation with global experts!

 

From our point of view, it is very important to fix these problems so that we do not lose possible installations of our software in the French market. Every market is important to us, including the French one.

edit: i just saw your post ipl_001. I will respond in a moment.

As I said above, France is not isolated!

Know that almost all of the antimalware editors work with us closely on private forums!

- all of the editors work with Eric L. Howes, of course

- CalamityJane is an administrator and responsible for security boards at LavaSoft

- SUPERantimalware collects the comments and remarks of our forums to improve their product

- Trend Micro also participate in close discussions (especially after they took over HijackThis) with us and we spent months together before they released their latest version (which was in beta state for months till we gave our agreement)!

- etc. I could multiply examples

 

As a conclusion, don't be wrong thinking France is a market apart from the rest of the world! Don't be wrong thinking you can expand without the agreement of the global antimalware community!

 

With this "mandatory" Crawler toolbar, you are ruining the quality/fame of SpywareTerminator.